Anony Mous

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Posts by Anony Mous

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  60

  The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

  by aqwsed12345 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

  the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

  there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

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  Anony Mous

  @aqswed: I was talking about documented papal succession and transfer of power/appointments from bishop to bishop, the documents go back far but cannot be definitively established although yes, the Roman Catholic Church can trace documented existence, there are other churches (eg Ethiopian) claim the same that have slightly stronger extant evidence although also not unbroken.

  As far as the Russelite movement vs Jehovah’s Witness claim to apostolic succession, the question was what signature would allow us to trace it in history. JWs cannot establish any teaching that would make it unique enough to be traced, would there be a sect that held the end to come in 1914, rejected the cross and divinity of Christ, that would be a signature. I’m looking for a small group like the Freemasons, Knights Templar or others that have sporadically popped up in history and align with modern JW teachings. Russell himself held to the Christian faith and the first and second schism has existing groups that still hold to the cross and the divinity of Christ, the third schism has a number of JW-like groups that also reject the divinity of Christ and the cross. So JWs need, if they want to claim apostolic succession to trace their lineage, first of all reject Russell as they did his teachings. Then we can find others (Mormons etc) that would likewise be JW-adjacent over time, but you can’t go much further than early 1800s.
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  60

  The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

  by aqwsed12345 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

  the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

  there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

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  Anony Mous

  I don’t think you can prove papal successions historically speaking beyond the early 9th or 10th century, the historical record for that is simply lost although you can prove the Catholic Church existed very early on (St. Ignacius - 110AD) which was writing to the congregation in Smyrna, the same referenced around the same time by Paul and John of Patmos.

  I agree with most of your claims although you must clarify what would make for a JW signature teaching in its own historic record. We all know the cross, trinity and other staple Christian teachings were commonly discussed by writers in the first Zion’s Watch Tower and its predecessor publications which JWs claim were their start, yes they eventually rejected those, but they didn’t come out of the gate with them. Russell clearly states that Jesus should be worshipped, not doing so would have made him a heretic in both the Millerite and Presbyterian movements, Presbyterians believe in the Catholic Church although they believe the Roman Catholic Church was corrupted. Although we know the Russelite movement went through its own schisms, only one branch resolving into WTBTS/JW, JW themselves would not admit to the true establishment being by Rutherford after another schism.

  So in short, what is the signature teaching of JWs that would be taught by Russell and accepted by modern JW - because there are not many if any teachings that currently overlap and have remained constant.
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  115

  Vice President Kamala Harris…your thoughts??

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  good pick?

  bad pick?

  helpful to president biden?

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  Anony Mous

  Interesting how ‘fact checkers’ always think you need context when the far-left says something dumb, but at the same time, there are no such articles when Trump or others speak in obvious hyperbole.

  It took Politifact 3 years to set the record straight on Trump’s both sides comment and only then as a fact check on an ad they brought out that called Biden a liar on the topic, then suddenly the ad needed context because Trump said it, when if you read the entire transcript what Biden said Trump said is not at all what he said. So they lie by omission, then when exposed they outright lie, that is politifact for you.

  Meanwhile Walz comment, which is accurate although hyperbole, which most people understand is fact checked in hours. Walz comment goes to what he actually believes, he wants to help people get across, if you build a wall, he will buy a factory, obviously not literal, but he will do whatever he can to get people into this country illegally.
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  75

  God won't lift a finger to help you.

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  sea breeze: @nicolau,i stated my case rather succiently, which you failed to address.

  if you have a better solution to the problem of evil than what jesus offers, then why don't you present that in a new topic?.

  pathetic diversion.

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  Anony Mous

  The story of Job is interesting, because if you read it from the JW perspective, it is indeed horrendous.

  However, that translation (many English translations) deal rather poorly with the subject matter and the exegesis of the JW is completely different than what most scholars will say.

  First of all, Job is shown to be a pious man, who by sheer luck hasn’t had to deal with the hardships of life, when bad things happen to him, he calls God to a tribunal of sorts. Off course JW portray this as Job being the bad person, but in Jewish tradition, it is the opposite, it is normal for this sort of reaction and the reaction of his friends are also what basically someone (the friends) with no experience of hardship would say.

  The rest of the book is basically God explaining that there are 2 aspects to nature, the monsters he created and the beautiful things go to the duality of nature. The leviathan, behemoth, unicorns etc are true monsters in the historical context, not what JW’s declare it to be some kind of dinosaur or wild beast, no the original text in the context of the culture they are true mythological monsters that represent chaos and evil and God created both. In the end, Job learns that these things aren’t his nor God’s fault, they happen but if you hang on and get through, good things may/will happen again to you. God doesn’t get “angry” in the JW translation but rather seems to not understand that Job can be so naive, so he returns and provides wisdom that nothing in the end can be blamed for the random things that happen in your life.

  This goes to the mythology of Satan and God in Christianity vs Judaism and earlier religions, historically speaking, they are both aspects of nature up to about the Renaissance. Christianity (at least modern forms) try to make a separation between good and evil whereas Judaism and earlier religions make them more part of one needs the other.

  I think bringing the JW view of morality to modern arguments is wrong, because the exegesis of scripture by JWs is what fits them (and not unusual for 1800s pop religions), rather than the Jewish or Catholic view of what fits historical scripture and culture.

  In those context, the question of good and evil goes away, God has instituted nature as it is and we are the ones with the ultimate responsibility for our destiny, are we going to lean into our base desires or trying to strive to something better, either way is going to be problematic, the holy things are only there as a distillation of the best we can be.
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  22

  Is Serena's Williams a JW baptized that is

  by blondie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  (can't insert edit in title husband a jw?).

  i just read that serena said both of them were jws.

  but this wouldn't be the first time means 1) supports her beliefs and does them 2) supports her beliefs and doesn't interfered with but no where does it say he is a baptized witness.

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  Anony Mous

  Truly, who cares, this is how JWs have been treating celebrities from Prince to MJ, Eisenhower, Naomi Campbell, Wayans bros, Michelle Rodriguez and quite a few others, hell, Biggie was a ‘brother’. I’ve even heard rumors of people studying with Bill Clinton, famous soccer players, they are held to a different standard as always and the “no true Scotsman” fallacy. Prince, MJ and the Williams sisters are pretty open about being ‘active’, which if anyone dare say anything about it in the KH, was always dismissed with “no true Scotsman”, “I’m sure their elders are taking care of it, but that (disfellowshipping procedures) shouldn’t be publicized” or “why are you following them that closely, don’t you know that following celebrities is like idolatry”.
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  115

  Vice President Kamala Harris…your thoughts??

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  good pick?

  bad pick?

  helpful to president biden?

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  Anony Mous

  Remember when the polls had Trump at a 10% chance to win over Hillary. Right now Kamala has it good because she hasn’t been asked a question by the media in 4 weeks. Wait for one of the 3 debates that were proposed, if her VP is even going to do one, I’m sure after the first one we won’t get another.

  The polls are also nationwide, she leads 4 points, which is horrendous since Michigan, New York and California have tons of people, does she really lead in the swing states? Remember, polling the population centers that are far-left do move the needle by several points, typically in favor of Democrats, again, both with Biden and Clinton, polling was between +5 and +10 for those states and they both lost sufficient people to make the Clinton election a practical landslide and Biden relied on like 30,000 votes in Georgia.

  RCP AVERAGE

  Top Battlegrounds
  

  Trump+0.6

  Arizona

  Trump+0.8

  Nevada

  Trump+3.5

  Wisconsin

  Harris+1.2

  Michigan

  Harris+2.4

  Pennsylvania

  Trump+0.2

  North Carolina

  Trump+2.4

  Georgia

  Trump+0.6
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  43

  Is 1st Century advice on marriage still relevant in today’s modern world?

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  republicans want to make a law that forbids ‘uncontested divorce”.

  they based this on this scripture.. matthew 19. is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”.

  4 “haven’t you read,” jesus replied, “that at the beginning the creator ‘made them male and female,’and said, ‘for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’ so they are no longer two, but one flesh.

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  Anony Mous

  @liam: these policy prescriptions are the middle of the road, far-left and far-right ideologies are identical, they are race-based marriage laws. But having marriage mean male to female is something Obama ca 2008 supported, keeping the government out of it is another one most would agree upon, but if the government is involved, it makes sense to have some common ground on what it all means and what is best for all involved.

  I personally do not subscribe to particular theologies, but NT advice is rather common sense on the topic at least, don’t marry until you are old enough, don’t marry outside your faith, I wouldn’t put that into law, but it is good advice.
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  43

  Is 1st Century advice on marriage still relevant in today’s modern world?

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  republicans want to make a law that forbids ‘uncontested divorce”.

  they based this on this scripture.. matthew 19. is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”.

  4 “haven’t you read,” jesus replied, “that at the beginning the creator ‘made them male and female,’and said, ‘for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’ so they are no longer two, but one flesh.

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  Anony Mous

  I think you are conflating a few issues here. No fault divorce allows for very easy no-proof allegations against men which strip them and children of their rights in favor of women. It has led to massive rise in divorce rates and child abuse (especially maternal), which isn’t good for children and the US is facing a reproduction crisis.

  Basically the way it works right now if someone is abusing their spouse, one can file and even if he files for a divorce with cause, the partner can counter for no-fault and the default no-fault is accepted, which throws away any repercussions, subsequently any rights to alimony, child support and visitations must now be litigated without judgment of prior actions (you cannot (rightfully so) bring prior spousal disagreement issues into child support and visitation cases).
  

  Re-establishing a way for people to find a divorce judgment and have that be adjudicated is a good thing imho. It makes it that marriage will be much more carefully considered and getting out will be meaningful. It will also punish abusive spouses more often.

  I don’t see, if you care for human rights and child protection that this is a bad thing.
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  43

  Members of congregation know it’s not true

  by Mikejw in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  we have lonely old folks and even some not so old.. they know the gb are not who they claim to be.. but they stay in the congregation because they are lonely.

  i wonder what percentage of jws this is the case, i would guess a lot.

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  Anony Mous

  I think at some point in their life everyone will realize it is all bogus. The question is whether they will admit it and change or simply shove it back and only have it bubble up once in a while.

  The true question is: to what end. Let us say you convince every JW in your congregation that at least something is fishy, it is rather easy to do, most people have already complained about finances, rule changes, youngsters, elders, changes in requirements etc, then what, if they all leave for various reasons, where would they go to. There is the fear that not everyone will agree on that answer, so most people are there to keep the peace with friends, family or at home.

  It is easier if you have family and friends that have already broken off, not those that just stayed behind and pretend to go through the motions once in a while, truly, f-this I’m gone, those are the brave people. Because eventually (1, 5, 10 and 20 years later) they will be joined by their previous family and friends and be truly free. And off course tragedy could occur before you see that happen.

  Nobody in my family and friends groups except my grandmother and a few truly evil people (literal child abusing psychopaths) that are still in. My grandmother has finally relented after I’ve been out over 12 years and sought contact after 20 years not talking to my mother but she is now severely demented. Few people in the congregations I was in are still there, they see what I went through and took their own conclusion eventually. JWs have a huge turnover.
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  115

  Vice President Kamala Harris…your thoughts??

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  good pick?

  bad pick?

  helpful to president biden?

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  Anony Mous

  @nicolaou: The funny thing about Jamaicans is they do NOT want to be identified with blacks in the US. Go into any corner store with Jamaican beef patties and ask if they are African American.

  They have different language, accents, mannerisms, food, culture in general, they do have their own opinion on ‘Africans’: https://youtu.be/363Y7dMw8vA?si=bBhM8vMlmmiKGO7i

  Jamaicans are not ‘black’, they are a Creole with some black, some Spanish/French and indigenous populations, they are what we would consider “Hispanic” (mix of indigenous, black and Spanish). The CDC defines people from that region as Hispanic. Yes, they have dark(er) skin, but so is most of the Carribean.

  So Harris isn’t black, she is mixed race, considered herself primarily Indian or Hispanic-Indian before. Obama wasn’t black either, he was mixed race and not even African American, as his father was from Kenya, not a US Citizen. And you can see the fact Harris is quick to switch, a few years ago she gave a podcast interview on a Latino heritage media site where she highlighted the fact her Latino heritage, she was Indian-American in California/San Francisco because there are a lot of Indian-American donors in the tech world over there. Now she wants to be black for the black vote, which has Indians pissed because she is now dumping her Indian-American status for African American.